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Post by Dandy Dan on Sept 29, 2005 21:54:20 GMT -5
I had no idea that you can mod. cams. Thanks for the lesson. I just posted a huge review of the cam, what it does, performance changes etc in your new thread called H.O. Cam but the cam for sure adds top end power so if you can go 41mph now you'll go 45mph with the cam. It's not like everyone ends up with the same power so a 35mph will go 43mph and a 42mph ruck will only go up to 43. With the cam I actually will accelerate up to 43mph and slowly climb to the high 40's.
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Post by lilruck on Sept 29, 2005 22:19:34 GMT -5
Yah we keep playing message board tag here, can we get Ruckuscentral instant messenger or something? Thanks for the imput and cam review. I wasn't going to get it at first but I am giving it a second thought. But no one else has any reviews?
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bluesmokeracing
Ruckster
vote for me and all your wildest dreams will come true
Posts: 253
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Post by bluesmokeracing on Sept 30, 2005 6:50:10 GMT -5
Yeah they have rings already made for two cycle and 4cycles, in 1mm increments, but for the 4cycles they go up to 41 then the next one up is 47mm, they do not have the need to stock 42mm rings, so in order for them to make this odd size ring they want us to commit to 2 thousand, i still like the idea of a bigger piston but they say it would take them 4-6months to do the rings. So how only 58cc sounds? hey chanito- www.vtcycles.com/main/models-yamaha.htm44mm for a razz, maybe rings can be found in 44mm?
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Post by chanito on Sept 30, 2005 17:11:18 GMT -5
:)That sound promising, but we need to find out if the Razz is a 4cycle, because if it is a 2 cycle it will not work, anyway guys please i need to find out if there is still interest in the bore idea or you guys rather go for the 4 valve head (which would be out of my range), i will need to invest some money go go further with this so i really need to know for sure if you want this or not, if not i will just go back to the exhaust and forget this matter
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Post by timberwolfmadcat on Sept 30, 2005 20:29:34 GMT -5
I want the mad speed for me ruckus,totally up for it, i dont think 50 ppl will be too much of a problem, how much do you think it will end up being overall with labour and suchforth(email back)
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Post by timberwolfmadcat on Sept 30, 2005 20:32:27 GMT -5
Razz is a 4 stroke i believe.....
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Post by lilruck on Sept 30, 2005 21:30:51 GMT -5
I got a reply from service honda and we can't get the 4v head through them. The 4v head seems like it will be too hard to find so if this is our only option I would want one if its still about 120.00 dollars? Not trying to stray too far but I know our engine is all ready " stroked" but thats to the stock piston size, so with the 41mm piston could we get another rod made to bump up the cc's even more? Not trying to get ahead of myself but if I could keep from having to keep taking the engine on and off, and taking it apart and back, that would be great and I would just like to do this once or twice.
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ZoomZoom
Ruckster
'05 Ruckus, '97 Polaris 400L 4X4
Posts: 251
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Post by ZoomZoom on Sept 30, 2005 21:37:05 GMT -5
:)That sound promising, but we need to find out if the Razz is a 4cycle, because if it is a 2 cycle it will not work, anyway guys please i need to find out if there is still interest in the bore idea or you guys rather go for the 4 valve head (which would be out of my range), i will need to invest some money go go further with this so i really need to know for sure if you want this or not, if not i will just go back to the exhaust and forget this matter I'm afraid I might be in the same situation as chanito here. if the cost is more than what's it's worth than I might be out of the game. Afterall... it does cost us canadians more in a long run. Still seeing all thius new info still wants me to still want.
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bluesmokeracing
Ruckster
vote for me and all your wildest dreams will come true
Posts: 253
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Post by bluesmokeracing on Sept 30, 2005 21:52:31 GMT -5
um, why wouldnt a 2 stroke piston work? the rings at least should be ok, right? im kinda dumb on the whole 2-stroke thing.
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ZoomZoom
Ruckster
'05 Ruckus, '97 Polaris 400L 4X4
Posts: 251
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Post by ZoomZoom on Sept 30, 2005 22:18:53 GMT -5
I'm not really qualify to say...but not enough rings for one thing.
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Post by lilruck on Oct 1, 2005 0:27:10 GMT -5
four stroke pistons also have an oil ring, two strokes dont.
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Post by chanito on Oct 1, 2005 7:37:27 GMT -5
:-/Two stroke uses low tension rings and usually only two and sometimes one, plus the big difference is that 4 cycle pistons use oil control rings (the weird ones with springs) of course 2cycles have no oil to control.
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Post by chanito on Oct 1, 2005 7:41:33 GMT -5
:'(Ouhps! I forgot to mention that so far the cost is about 120 for the piston and about 40 for the gaskets, but it might go up little because they need to finalize the cost with the parts in their hands so i have to send them a piston and a head, and a gasket set to the gasket people, but it should be bellow 200 in parts, i don't know about the labor
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Post by Dandy Dan on Oct 1, 2005 10:26:40 GMT -5
Abe once said that if you are going to install a big bore piston you should really add larger valves or you'll be wasting a lot of that potential performance cuz the engine can't breathe well enough to fully take advantage of the extra displacement. At the time, Abe wasn't aware of the 4-valve conversion potential which would likely be an even better solution.
Because of this I think we should make the big bore pistons 4-valve compatible only and then people would do both mods at once. It just seems kinda pointless to tear your engine open, bore it, replate it etc if your head can't flow more air.
A stroker crank would be really nice to have as it wouldn't be much extra work since you're in there anyways but I think it might be best to leave that for now as it doesn't make a huge difference in displacement (50mm stroke instead of 44mm adds 6cc to a stock bore and 7.5cc if we had a 43mm) compared to a big bore piston (ie. 43mm bore is a 14cc boost) and it adds a lot more research, investment and work on our parts. Perhaps someday we could get that done but I don't thing we should try and do everything at once.
Oh, the 50cc Razz was a 2-stroke and it's bore/stroke was 40.0 x 39.2. I don't know where you got the 44mm bore from unless they made an 80cc version or that was a big bore kit. (http://www3.telus.net/dougsimpson/Razz.html). I did email Steve from VT Cycles and asked him if he knows of any means of getting the rings we need but he usually takes a couple days to write back.
Anyways, right now I'd say we should develop the 4-valve kit and big bore piston (hopefully 43mm but 41mm would still be good). Does anyone wanna throw in any $$ so we can get Hadoq to order a euro cam and check if it works? I'll throw in some... we need about 40$.
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Post by lilruck on Oct 1, 2005 11:03:33 GMT -5
You cant make a piston that will work on a 2v and a 4v head. The piston has like these imprints on the dome of it and correspond to the valves. A piston from a 4v engine has 4 imprints, a 2v engine piston only has two imprints on its dome.
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Post by chanito on Oct 1, 2005 13:32:48 GMT -5
Maybe Abe knows something i do not, and he has taken the engine apart and i haven't, but my numbers tell me we should be ok with the stock valves and carb until we get into the 80cc and up, as far as i know taking the engine to 58cc should get us an improvement in torque up to 7200 and bump the max horse to 8500, so we should be able to keep an honest 45 mph and those pesky hills should not bother us as much as they do now, the need for a bigger cam is because we will be keeping the engine in the middle 8k range so some extra duration will help a lot in keeping the engine breathing nicely, but we probably could get away without a camshaft change, the 4 valve head would be nice in that it will allow us more low end torque, therefore better acceleration, also they give us faster flow into the engine so we can take advantage of a wilder exhaust, even open pipes, as we are now any wild pipe creates a lean high rpm condition, that is why stock pipes are better than aftermarket, so far the only solution for the muffler is a mutichamber oner (the stock is)
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Post by Dandy Dan on Oct 1, 2005 13:54:31 GMT -5
Jason from Battlescooter emailed me today and said: "It makes no sense to do a piston with the stock valves, they are too small. The 4v this. It makes .5hp more, that's huge!" I'm not sure about the 1/2 horsepower more thing as I think we had a thread on this and it wasn't more powerful but it seems to me that the cam makes more power by opening the valves further/longer than stock so the valves obviously pose some sort of a restriction to a Ruckus if the cam improves power. It may still run fine with the stock valve setup but I think the valves are somewhat of a bottleneck. The new 49cc Yamaha Vino uses a 3 valve setup to flow more air. Why would Honda have developed a 4V system if the 2 valve wasn't restrictive or at least maxed out?
What I meant about a piston that is 2V and 4V compatable was just a 'thinking outside the box' idea that maybe if we made 2 large cutouts so that both intake valves would be in the same cutout (for a 4V one). I don't know the feasability of this but I was just throwing it out there.
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Post by chanito on Oct 1, 2005 14:55:38 GMT -5
Maybe my English is not as good as i thought, 4 little valves have more curtain area (the cylinder shape were the flow occurs with the valve open) than two big ones, the reason to go for a 4 valve set up is to take advantage of this area in accel and transition speeds, at full opening this advantage goes away, that is way dragster engines are very happy with just two valves, going with 4 valves heads will give us more mid range power but the top power would be about the same. At 18mm the intake valves in a 38mm piston can hardly be call small (that is almost half the piston diameter), any bigger will require reliefs ground in the cyl. walls, i wish some racing engines have that piston to valve size ratio. Any way i can not alter your point of view, but a four valve head is way too expensive for my pocket, if you guys think the big bore is worth it great if not lets forget the subject
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Post by Dandy Dan on Oct 1, 2005 16:46:45 GMT -5
First and foremost I want this to happen to I'm willing to compromise on the end product as long as we get something done. I'd like a 4V scoot but mainly I want a big bore engine so if you're sure that we're not taking a significant power hit by staying with 2V then it's ok with me.
I do still wonder about a piston though that has 2 big cutouts so that it works fine for a 2V engine but the cutouts are so bit that 2 valves would fit in each cutout if you wanted to go 4V. The advantage of this is that it would keep the compression ratio in check.
Out of curiosity, do you think Wiseco would make me a one off custom piston if I paid like 500$?
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Post by chanito on Oct 1, 2005 17:48:29 GMT -5
:)No but the can make a dozen for about 2000, the reason a universal piston is not a good idea is that 6 cut out for the 2-4 valve piston would make the crown of the piston too weak, so in order to make it strong it will end up top heavy, the idea was to have two diferent pistons, making a piston with two large cut out will require some engineering as the top of the piston is an important part of the combustion chamber
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