Aftermarket pistons HELP!!

[Dandy Dan]

chanito said:

The numbers are there because the boring needs to be slightly smaller than the finish so there is room for the honing, otherwise the cyl will end up being too big, some machinist like to take more material than others while doing the honing so they request a specific size

Gotcha ;D

And who'd have thought this thread would ever make it to 27 pages! It's gotta be the longest RC thread by a considerable margin. You're my hero Chanito!

[Dandy Dan]

So Chanito, maybe I'm just way too excited about the big bore pistons (you can tell because the last 6 posts in this thread are mine) but next summer when you've sold all of your big bore pistons do you think we'll be able to put together a stroker crank project

The way I see it, people would really jump on this because:
1 - It would be a bolt in replacement, no boring required and thus less downtime ;D
2 - A lot of people are in there anyways because the stock crank bearings are going and since a new stock crank is already $100 people would likely be willing to pony up an extra $100 to add 5mph ;D
3 - It'll add more power which everyone wants ;D
4 - You could sell it as a package with the big bore piston and then everyone would only need to pay for the seals/gaskets once and the difference would be even bigger ;D

As I recall, the main hang ups with this project are that Powell would only want to do a run of 50 (which is a heck of a lot), the price and we don't know how much gain there would be. I was trying to measure how much stroke increase our engines have room for by measuring the clearance between the piston and the crank and that's roughly 10-12mm so we might have room to add 4-5mm of stroke? A 5mm increase in stroke in a stock engine is only 5.6cc but when you do the big bore piston as well that difference is multiplied and it ends up being an additional 6.6cc that brings us all the way up to 65cc which is getting pretty sweet...considering that 50cc does about 40mph and 58cc does 45mph a 65cc seems like it would capable of crusing at 50mph all day and of course faster than that if you were to tuck or be running in perfect conditions. Maybe by this point I'll be a little better off financially and I'll be able to pony up some of the capital for the project...50 cranks is still too much though but I think 24 would be doable when you consider that the number of Ruckii on the road (and hence potential customers) is growing daily (I wish I could find Honda's sales data).

I guess we just need to wait until this big bore project sells out and is officially a success and then maybe I'll look into:

1 - Will Powell (or someone else) do a run of less than 50?
2 - Cost
3 - Feasability - How much stroke can we really add? I have an extra stock crank laying around because my bearings went on my last Ruckus so I can easily measure anything.

Stock displacement: 49.38cc
Big Bore displacement: 58.09cc (+ 8.71cc)
Stroker Displacement (extra 5mm): 54.99cc (+ 5.61cc) ;D
Big Bore & Stroker Displacement: 64.69cc (+15.31cc)

[suprtek]

dandydan said:

tedsmini said:

Chanito, maybe your brakes are better than mine were. I was going down a hill at about 42 and I tried to stop at the bottom of the hill and sailed right through the stop sign: no lockup no skidding: no stopping. The lack of front suspension and weak brakes means we all need you to be careful. (Carry a small anchor or grappling hook )

I think you've always just had bum brakes tedsmini...you've always felt that your brakes were terrible where as myself, Chanito and others feel they are okay. I'm not sure why there is a difference but there definately is because if I grab my rear brake very hard I can lock up the tire and if I grab the front hard I can actually do a small nose wheelie.

Ted's not the only one. I've never been able to lock up either wheel unless the road was wet or something. I've made sure they are adjusted properly. Makes me wonder if there were some variances in the materials used for the brakes.

[Dandy Dan]

With my 2006 Ruckus I once went for a 10 miles ride with my rear brake on too tight (I had tightened it to hold the rear wheel still while I loosened the nut. It was a windy day but I was still wondering why I was slow slow (down about 5mph) and I finally figured out that I'd left my brake on the whole time. Since then my rear brake has kinda sucked (maybe I glazed the shoes) but my front brake is still sharp so I hardly use the rear. Maybe a bit of sanding with course sand paper would help...there does seem to quite a bit of variance between Ruckus brakes.

[Dandy Dan]

dandydan said:

Will Powell (or someone else) do a run of less than 50?

I know I'm jumping way ahead of the game here but I found some other potential crankshaft sources...the first one will even stroke and rebalance your stock crank for $379 which isn't too bad for a one off job (and a maybe a Ruckus crank would be cheaper)...hmm, maybe I'll do this. How would they do this Chanito? Add material like a cam regrind?

www.faliconcranks.com/crank.htm
www.kingscrankshaft.com/
www.sicrankshaft.com/custom_parts.htm

[suprtek]

dandydan said:

With my 2006 Ruckus I once went for a 10 miles ride with my rear brake on too tight (I had tightened it to hold the rear wheel still while I loosened the nut. It was a windy day but I was still wondering why I was slow slow (down about 5mph) and I finally figured out that I'd left my brake on the whole time. Since then my rear brake has kinda sucked (maybe I glazed the shoes) but my front brake is still sharp so I hardly use the rear. Maybe a bit of sanding with course sand paper would help...there does seem to quite a bit of variance between Ruckus brakes.

Is it possible that its not the variance in the brakes, but the variance in the weight of the rider? If I'm not mistaken, according to past posts, I have at least 50 pounds on you.

[8chpl]

If you can't get a bigger carbuerator, increasing displacement past the big bore by stroking the crank may be counter productive. Who knows?

I agree with Chanito's assessment on 2 stroke engine life. I put 20,000 or so KM on my Yamaha BW (1990) and pretty much burned out the engine. That was the prime reason I chose the Ruckus. I liked the Yamaha though. I drove it through the winters dowwn to -15 C or about 5 Fahrenheit.

The big bore may run slightly cooler since there is less material between the piston and the water jacket, in theory it should cool faster.

[ZOOMER46]

the stroker kit is certainly the next thing,go dandy !!

the stroker kit can surely only be counter productive if the only thing you need is more revs?
the sub 10,000rpm limit can easily accomadate a longer stroke anyways.
and in any case a longer stroke produces more torque naturally
its like free energy!

when you think a 600 sports bike ,like an r6 can rev to 16,000rpm with over x10
the capacity it has to be do-able.?

and just a thought on the weakish crank bearings that are standard,
what if larger diameter bearings were used?
at least on the outer diameter.
i now know that on the stock crank only one bearing is replaced,
but if the new stroker crank had them fitted already it may last another 5,000 miles.
only case mod would be make the bearing seating a little larger.

[chanito]

I need to respond with a longer answer later, but i think a stroker kit will be hard to sell, i have only sold 5 big bore kits and the way i see it, most people are more concern with looks and suspension than performance, when the Dio kit sold out at 1400 dollars within hours i figure that 300 dollars for a big bore kit should sell within weeks, but that is not the case, stroker cranks will be even more expensive

[Dandy Dan]

8chpl said:

If you can't get a bigger carbuerator, increasing displacement past the big bore by stroking the crank may be counter productive. Who knows?

Getting a bigger carb may be hard to do with a 2006 Ruckus but I think the stock carb is quite adequate even for a stroker engine. Despite what some Honda info says about having a 15mm carb, we actually have an 18mm carb...the service manual says so and I've measured it myself. I think 18mm is plenty adequate for anything we can do to our engines when you consider that lots 80cc 2-strokes are using 16mm or 18mm carbs.

[Dandy Dan]

zoomer46 said:

what if larger diameter bearings were used?
at least on the outer diameter.
i now know that on the stock crank only one bearing is replaced,
but if the new stroker crank had them fitted already it may last another 5,000 miles.
only case mod would be make the bearing seating a little larger.

Wow this sounds like a lot of work...I guess you could machine the case to fit slightly larger bearings but that'd be so expensive and if I do get a stroker crank done it will probably be a one off stroked version of the stock crank so I still couldn't get bigger bearings on. If I ever do this (next summer at the soonest) then I'd buy a brand new crank from Honda so the bearings are fresh and then just keep my fingers crossed.

[Dandy Dan]

chanito said:

the way i see it, most people are more concern with looks and suspension than performance, when the Dio kit sold out at 1400 dollars within hours i figure that 300 dollars for a big bore kit should sell within weeks, but that is not the case, stroker cranks will be even more expensive

Definately a good point but I don't think people aren't into more peformance. I think people really want more power (look at how many variators are being sold!) but they are just shy about the big bore piston for 2 reasons which are:

1 - It hasn't been proven yet
2 - It's difficult to install and people don't want the hassle

I think if we can get #1 taken care of then #2 won't be a huge issue because there will be people who are fine with doing the work. It's nice that Chanito has been able to report very positive results but I think it's going to help a lot when I post my Veypor graphs showing my speed gains and when a few more people start piping up and saying 'yeah it worked great for me too!'. Over time this will become accepted as a mod that adds performance without hurting anything and then it'll sell faster.

I think the price is right and the performance gains are too so we just need to ease peoples concerns about reliability and make it easier for them to install one (ie. an install guide with pics).

[Guestest]

If the big bore works for the people who have gotten it then I'll buy one, just want to wait for the results and see if any complications arise.

[Dandy Dan]

Cool....only one is up and running right now but that has been totally successful with a 5mph gain and I should complete reassembling my engine this weekend and so I'll have more results to report. I've got a fancy computer on my scooter that graphs your accleration and speed over time (and a million other things) so I'll be able to show you guys graphs of exactly how much faster I am.

[Dandy Dan]

I'm very stoked for my maiden big bore voyage tomorrow. My engine is totally reassembled and ready to go back in the frame so I figure maybe an hour to get it in and hooked up and then another hour to get the bike reassembled and the engine filled with oil and coolant (don't wanna forget those) and then it'll be flying. I'm a little nervous but confident because I've rebuilt my engine before (on my last Ruckus) successfully and I really took my time and made sure everything was done right.

I might have a chance to post an update on Sat. or Sunday but my weekends are very busy so I might not be able to update you guys until Monday morning.

Oh, one question: I was running 87 octane when I last used my Ruckus. I meant to fill up with 91 last time but I forget. Is it okay to just mix the 91 octane in with my 1/3 tank that's left of 87 or should I drain the 87 into my lawn mower or something? I'm gonna have to make a sticker for my gas cap that says '91 Only' so I don't forget from now on.

Oh, another question: What main jet are you running Chanito? I think I'm running around 38/80 right now but I'm not sure. I'm trying to figure out if I should fire it up with that and then rejet from there or start with a higher guess.

[dano1]

I went back in the thread and it looks like Chanito is running the stock cam and still hitting 45 MPH!!!

It is going to be very interesting to see what the BIG bore kit will do in a high performance cam engine. I too am waiting for the jury to come in with a few more positive results then I'm sure I'll "bite the bullet" and go big.

Great job Chanito

[Dandy Dan]

Yeah it's impressive considering he doesn't have any other performance mods other than a basic intake. He has a CDI but that really just eliminates the redline...it doesn't add any power. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm going to be able to say what the top speed is with the big bore piston in my Ruckus because I redline at 45-46mph and right now I can cruise at 42-43mph in normal conditions and I don't really wanna cruise much faster because I don't wanna be running right at the redline the whole time. I think hitting the redline is gonna be no problem so I can only speculate how fast it actually goes. I will be able to provide some great 0-45mph graphs though showing acceleration and how much faster the engine is now.

[jrcanoe]

If I lived somewhere flat I would do the metro gear swap with the big bore and tune for top speed.
I plan to tune for the best 0 to 40 mph and hold it against wind and hills. If it will trickle up faster than 40 that will be just gravy.
I like to do 35mph just like everyone else in a 25mph zone and I hate it when they crawl up you butt because you can't maintain 10mph over the speed limit. In town I'm the fastest thing around so the big bore will make maintaining my title easier. Where I'm hoping for the most improvement from the big bore is pulling away at lights in 35 zones; with some good improvement there I could reign supreme everywhere I go.

[chanito]

An update, i finally got around to adjust the idle mixture, i went out 1/2 a turn and the idle went up to 1800 rpms, i am tempted to adjust the idle speed, but i want to test a slow jet first, anyway the drivability is greatly improved and now is a delight to ride, still is hard to accel from standing still after sitting at a light, but i hope some rejetting will fix that, the top end is better, and it get to 40 as fast as it used to get to 30, so the average speed is improved too, right now my only concern is addressing the cold running problem as it is kind of temperamental until it warms up, so far the top power appears to be 8500 rpm, as that is as fast as i have gotten the engine speed, is like a wall, no matter how long the straight 8500 is top engine speed on a flat, as you know the cam is the stock one, and i really need to go back and readjust the valve lash, as i was too eager to get Frankie running, but i did some port cleaning and that really helps, i am running an 85 main jet and appears to be spot-on, i wonder after rejetting the slow jet i might need to get a smaller main jet, but i will cross that bridge when i get there.
Also i decided to include the Chanito Motorsports piston ring compressor with the kit, so installing the piston will be easier, if anyone of the people that got the kit also want one please let me know and i mail you one, i can barely wait for the Lorax to be running with the big bore to see how it performs with the hi-po cam, also the vaypor graphics should help with the jetting, we are still waiting to meet Mrs DD, hope we do this weekend

[cwizard]

hey chanito send me and victor one of those spring compressor things!

also, i got my new windshield and its 100x better, sending the other one back.

we should be getting our rucks done soonish!