jabba
Junior Ruckster
Posts: 56
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Post by jabba on Mar 12, 2007 6:38:21 GMT -5
I was reading my service manual last night for a good time and I stumbled across the engine coolant temp information: - under 35C (95F) = SE (start enrichment) valve in carb is open, thermostat is shut - 35C to 74-78C (170F) = Both are shut - 74-78 C (165-172F) = Thermostat starts to open - 100C (212F) = Thermostat is fully open - 120C (248F) = Engine hot light comes on Judging from this information I imagine you'd probably want to be running somewhere in the 75-100C range which is 170-212F so if you are only running 130 then that's pretty cold. One option that might work is just to unbolt the radiator fan off of the flywheel. It's not hard at all...you just take the plastic radiator cover off (4 screws) and then drain and unbolt the radiator (4 bolts) and then your at the fan which comes off via 3 bolts. Then put your rad back on, fill it up and then toss the plastic cover on. This is totally untested so if you do it keep an eye on your temp guage. Or you could do as we used to do for hot running 900 ninjas, and as i did with the dt200. Wire a dual pole dual throw (DPDT) neutral center toggle switch into the supply side of the fan circuit. Flip the switch one way, and the normal thermostatically controlled operation occurs. Flip it the other and power bypasses and operates the fan directly as long as the switch is on. (Also great for hot conditions) The neutral center lets u shut the fan off (great for winter) I have to say, where I live i'm regarded as being "a little bit nuts" because of my winter riding habit. It does my ol' heart good to see so many guys that ride in cold weather. Its why i am really developing a liking for scooters, not too may posers here, everyone is just out to have fun. |
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Post by Dandy Dan on Mar 12, 2007 10:19:28 GMT -5
Our fan is actually bolted right on to the flywheel so the only way to flick it on/off is by using the engine kill switch.
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jabba
Junior Ruckster
Posts: 56
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Post by jabba on Mar 12, 2007 20:27:33 GMT -5
Our fan is actually bolted right on to the flywheel so the only way to flick it on/off is by using the engine kill switch. well that kinda changes that idea. Does it unbolt? i guess that it could be removed if u felt you had to. i'm starting to see this liquid cooling thing as more of a pain than a solution as time goes on. Sigh, this is SOOO Honda. So tightly engineered that short of major surgery, there really isnt a lot that can be done. Hey, Dan are you familiar with wind trainers for bicycles? It is a triangulated frame which bolts to the rear wheel of the bicycle for indoor training. Pedaling resistance is provided by 2 small axial fans not much bigger than hair dryer fans. If you have ever experienced one of these trainers, the fans impart quite a surprising bit of resistance. I wonder if eliminating the crank driven fan and subbing an electric fan would cut down on resistance based horsepower losses? I know it is SUPPOSED to be a consideration with hotrodding cars. Lord knows, with one of these things, every bit counts. |
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Post by chanito on Mar 12, 2007 21:55:53 GMT -5
 That my friend would be a very bad idea, as the fan also cools the starter/alternator, but on the other hand the advantages of water cooling is what makes are little engines run very happily at 8k, the cooling design of the waterflow on the head, is a dream come true for anyone who ever had to deal with racing engines and hi compression 
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Post by Dandy Dan on Mar 13, 2007 11:14:43 GMT -5
The alternator gets hot? I never really thought about it but it has no moving parts so I just never pictured it as being hot.
jabba, yeah the fan unbolts easily....theres's just three small bolts that hold it on. I know what you're saying about the wind resistance too and I considered removing it ( and lightening the flywheel) as ways of adding power but the gains are so miniscule that I'd rather have the reliability of an untampered with system. One idea though is that you could cut down the fans fins so they are say, half as tall as sort of a compromise. You could buy an extra fan for probably $10 at your local dealer and use that one in the winter.
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Post by chanito on Mar 13, 2007 21:07:27 GMT -5
This business of producing power has the side effect of heat, that you need to dissipate, also using power creates heat, and believe it or not and object rotating on air has friction, and all those little electrons moving on those alternator coils creates heat  |
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Post by Dandy Dan on Mar 14, 2007 10:14:44 GMT -5
good to know....thanks ;D
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jabba
Junior Ruckster
Posts: 56
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Post by jabba on Mar 25, 2007 6:13:30 GMT -5
That my friend would be a very bad idea, as the fan also cools the starter/alternator, but on the other hand the advantages of water cooling is what makes are little engines run very happily at 8k, the cooling design of the waterflow on the head, is a dream come true for anyone who ever had to deal with racing engines and hi compression i was thinking of replacing the flywheel driven fan with a high volume electric unit, Don't know exactly what i would source it from, would have to prowl the motorcycle scrapyard. but im sure theres something that will fit. P.S. i am THE KING of swapping parts and making unrelated parts not only fit but look factory. (eg my twin computer case fan assisted, liquid cooled yamaha 2 stroke dirt bike. It used to overheat when i drove too slowly to keep airflow going thru the rads so...) |
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Post by Dandy Dan on Mar 26, 2007 11:01:10 GMT -5
I have no idea where'd you get a good fan. Why are you doing this? To decrease the drag? This mod seems like a lot of work/hassle for the benefit.
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Post by eq1 on Mar 28, 2007 5:03:48 GMT -5
...We have a SE Valve (start enrichment) that adds extra gas when the coolant is below 35C (95F) but that's more of a rough guess then a finely tuned cold weather system. I find my Ruckus runs the worst just after the SE valve shuts off because the engine is still fairly cold but isn't getting any help. You can notice the SE valve if you start your scoot up on a cold day. It'll idle a bit higher for a minute or two and then go a bit irradic for 30seconds as the valve closes and then it'll settle into a smoother but lower idle.... This describes how my scoot runs almost to a tee, except the 'irradic' part - mine is too erratic, annoying. My 2002 Met ran great cold and warm, but my 2006 has never run well cold. I worked with the SE valve, took it off, tested it, all sorts of stuff, but have never got it running well 100% of the time. On the SE valve, I'm pretty sure it's a sort of 'hit and miss' system, as in not precisely regulated by, say, water temperature or time. Electrical current flows to the valve and heats up a little metal cylinder in the plastic valve housing. When the metal cylider heats up, I think it expands, and the expansion starts to push the needle valve into the carb inlet that I suppose lets in gas. One measure I took when scoot wasn't running well cold was screwing the plastic housing outward, which made it so it would take longer for the needle valve to fully seat in the carb inlet, i.e. stop the extra fuel flow. My feeling was that the SE valve was deactuating too soon - I was getting that boggish running when the scoot seemed too cold still, yet wasn't getting the enrichment I thouhgt it still needed... Not sure how well it worked; it still seemed to be erratic, as in, works well sometimes, works like crap at others... |
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Post by Dandy Dan on Mar 28, 2007 9:08:22 GMT -5
Your 06 idles fine once it's warm though? It is really handy to have a scoot that idles well when cold because then you can fire it up and let it warm up for a minute or two in the driveway while you get dressed.
Regarding the SE valve closing...I think when the coolant temperature sensor hits 35 C then it turns on the electrical current which gradually closes the SE valve. If you have the expertise then feel free to play with this but adjusting the idle mix to just add a bit more gas may be an easier way.
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eq
Junior Ruckster
Posts: 74
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Post by eq on Mar 28, 2007 12:32:25 GMT -5
I used to think it must be connected to the coolant temp. But then I thought again, after someone said it didn't. After I got it apart, it seemed logical to think that, when it's colder it simply takes longer for the metal cylinder to heat up, and thus to expand and close the valve. On the other hand, it's sometimes so erratic that I've been thinking there must be some other issue, some other connection, that isn't right. Doesn't seem like simply heating a piece of metal could behave so differently from one time to the next.
On the idle mixture, I did try that. I thought it worked, but then not. Oh, and it does idle fine after quite a while, maybe 10 minutes of riding, which compared to my 2002 seems like forever. Right now it idles too fast cold, hesitates and bogs when the valve is shutting, idles too slow for the next 5 minutes or so, and then smooths out. Idle might be a little slow right now...
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Post by chanito on Mar 28, 2007 12:50:33 GMT -5
 The SE valve is just a sealed canister with a heat expanding wax, an ECM controlled resistor inside is what heats the wax, when cold it allows extra fuel to reach the engine via the idle circuit. If the idle mixture is properly adjusted the scooter will run a lot better during the transition between the closing of the SE valve and a fully warmed scooter, so yes you need to adjust the idle mixture properly for the scooter to run better cold
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eq
Junior Ruckster
Posts: 74
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Post by eq on Mar 29, 2007 9:11:11 GMT -5
Your "ECM controlled resistor" is probably the same as what I'm calling a "little metal cylinder." I never saw any wax... There's a little metal cylinder in there, that sits inside a plastic-like, nozzle-shaped housing that resists a spring. At the end of the plastic-like nozzle, there's a ... something, can't recall exactly - something that pushes on a needle valle that gets pushed into the SE gas circuit. In any event, that little metal piece gets really hot and would seem to regulate, in part, the opening and closing of the valve. To test the valve you put 12 volt power to the electrodes. Question is, is the power to the electrodes also controlled by something else? Does it go on right away from the time you start the scoot, or does it go on after some time, regulated by some other device, like a water temperature sensor... On the idle mixture, is there any ruckus wisdom about 'how many turns' the mixture screw typically gets set at? Stock I think it's 2 1/2; I tried like 3, a little more, etc., didn't seem to do much...
I found the whole SE circuit confusing. To test the circuit further, you attach a hose to the slow jet and blow: when the valve's closed there shouldn't be any air going through, when it's open it should flow freely. I didn't notice much difference. I'd plug the hole that gets plugged up by the SE valve needle, and I'd still get air through. Open it felt pretty much the same, same amount of air going through... At the time this was a scoot with only 200 or so miles; I didn't think the circuit could be plugged up by anything.
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Post by Dandy Dan on Mar 29, 2007 9:36:12 GMT -5
Yeah the whole SE valve is confusing which is why I've never really messed with it beyond hooking up a voltmeter. It's my understanding that the "little metal piece goes on after some time" via regulation by the water temp sensor. I think when the ECM gets word from the temp sensor that your coolant is at 35C then it starts sending the voltage to the little metal piece and it starts closing.
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Post by chanito27 on Mar 30, 2007 12:02:33 GMT -5
 OK lets start from the beginning, when the engine is dead cold, the SE allows extra gas that is pick up from the carb bowl by its own jet, and is add to the idle system, so it gets suck by the engine thru the idle mixture and the transition ports, making the same results as a bigger slow jet, once the temp gets above 35 degrees Celsius, about 5 Fahrenheit, it sends voltage to a resistor which heat the wax canister (is the sealed cylindrical thing with the rubber tip) as the wax insider the canister heats up it expand and seal this particular passage, You can not see the wax as it is inside the cylinder and the only movable part is the nose with the rubber tip, so there is nothing to control the rate of closing of this valve, it gets heat and as soon as it expand enough it will close the enrichment, so it work with the idle mixture and the idle speed, that is why it is so important to have them set correctly
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Post by Dandy Dan on Mar 30, 2007 12:11:13 GMT -5
Nice explanation Chanito...that makes perfect sense. BTW, 35 C is more like 95 F...not 5F |
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eq
Junior Ruckster
Posts: 74
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Post by eq on Mar 30, 2007 14:44:42 GMT -5
"...so there is nothing to control the rate of closing of this valve..."
Well, when I applied current to the valve to test it, it takes a while to heat up and start moving the needle... It seems reasonable to think it would take less or more time to heat up and do something depending on the initial temperature... So, are you saying that the water gets to a certain temperature, it's sensed, ECM sends a signal to SE valve, SE valve closes? That water temperature is the only thing that regulates it's timing? That the valve itself is more or less off and on?
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Post by Dandy Dan on Mar 30, 2007 15:25:55 GMT -5
I think he's saying that when the coolant hits 35 C then the electricity starts flowing to the SE valve so it starts it's gradual closing and probably isn't fully closed for another minute or so...you probably know best eq how fast it closes since you've watched it.
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Post by chanito on Mar 30, 2007 18:27:03 GMT -5
Yes the valve irself is just on or off, it might be a good idea to install a resistor so is less voltage available to heat the canister and it will open slower But that is just an idea
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