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Post by Dandy Dan on Sept 19, 2005 7:55:18 GMT -5
The 4-valve head would definately be superior to the two valve one in terms of breathing ability which would be a bottleneck. A replacement 2-valve head is about 100$ US plus maybe 50$ for new valves, rocker arms etc. But the euro one might be a bit more. I'd guess 200$ US for the 4-valve conversion, another 110$ or so for the piston and maybe 150-200$ to get the whole thing bored and replated. I really hope this project works out but I think it would be tough to get 50 people who are willing to take their engines out and take them to a machine shop. Is there any way Wiseco will do maybe a 24 piston run and charge 150$ or so?? It would be nice to have Abe/Jason on board from the battlescooterstore because he's interested in working on peoples engine and I'm sure more people would be interested in doing that even if it costs more.
Chanito: Are you sure the euro shop manual doesn't have the cam specs?? My service manual has cam specs on the lobe height and the lift of the cam so you can easily calculate the max/min.
I still don't really understand why we need a headgasket custom made. You know your stuff better than I do Chanito but why couldn't we just trim the headgasket a bit with a razor blade or something?
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Post by chanito on Sept 19, 2005 18:36:13 GMT -5
Ok the 4 valve head sounds like a great thing to do at the same time as the piston because you have to take the head off anyway, but the cost of the head and accessories, make this a more costly project. Making this in smaller volumes, make the pistons more expensive, so much so that making 25 is almost as expensive as making 50 . Beside the obvious (duration, lift, etc) we need the measurement of the diameter of the surfaces where the bearings ride (front and rear) its positions, but more important how the gear attaches to the cam The reason you need to make a special head gasket is because the head gaskets are made of a fiber material with a metallic insert call the fire ring, this insert goes around the hole in the gasket for the combustion chamber so the explosions inside the combustion chamber do not burn the gasket, this fire ring need to seal properly for the gasket to do its job, when you narrow a sleeve as we plan to do, there is going to be a lot less area clamping this ring, increasing the risk of burning the gasket, since that is something we do not want to happen, we need a gasket design to operate with this smaller clamping area. Does it make sense now?
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Post by ace1969 on Sept 19, 2005 20:42:52 GMT -5
Yes it does and how did the phone call go?
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Post by chanito on Sept 28, 2005 16:10:53 GMT -5
Well an update, i did talk to Wiseco, and the problem is the rings, the bigger size they have is 41mm which would give a displacement of only 58cc, doing the piston would require sending them a piston and a head, they would take three weeks to forge them, in order to do a bigger size piston would require an order in the thousands, way out of my reach, the price of the pistons is in the range of about 120 dollars, if you guys are still interested let me know, if not then let know also so i can close this chapter
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Post by Dandy Dan on Sept 28, 2005 16:14:57 GMT -5
I don't 100% understand. Is the problem that they don't really have the equipment to make one bigger than 41mm or is the small order limit 41mm just because of the rings? If it's just the rings there's gotta be somewhere else we could get them. Regardless 58cc is still a nice increase (15%) and should add 4-5mph which would be a nice change.
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Post by chanito on Sept 28, 2005 18:30:06 GMT -5
Yeah they have rings already made for two cycle and 4cycles, in 1mm increments, but for the 4cycles they go up to 41 then the next one up is 47mm, they do not have the need to stock 42mm rings, so in order for them to make this odd size ring they want us to commit to 2 thousand, i still like the idea of a bigger piston but they say it would take them 4-6months to do the rings. So how only 58cc sounds?
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ZoomZoom
Ruckster
'05 Ruckus, '97 Polaris 400L 4X4
Posts: 251
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Post by ZoomZoom on Sept 28, 2005 18:48:39 GMT -5
I know wiseco makes a good piston but isn't there another company that makes pistons? I wish I could remember their name but it's evading me at the moment.
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angelis
n00b Ruckster
The one and only
Posts: 33
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Post by angelis on Sept 28, 2005 20:35:57 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure JE Pistons/SRP makes custom pistons as well. Don't go quoting me on that though.
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kzuckus
Junior Ruckster
"Look, Sir, Droids."
Posts: 83
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Post by kzuckus on Sept 29, 2005 1:08:04 GMT -5
If I could get 4-5mph more, I'm game!
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Post by lilruck on Sept 29, 2005 1:47:14 GMT -5
I want the piston. Two summers have gone and pass with the hopes of BSS to come out with their big bore so no more wating on them. Even if its only 58 cc maybe in a couple of years another piston will come out and I would just bore it out even more, hopefully 70cc. I want one.
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Post by lilruck on Sept 29, 2005 1:49:06 GMT -5
Oh yah, what about the head gasket?
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Post by Dandy Dan on Sept 29, 2005 10:31:18 GMT -5
With a 41mm bore piston you could use the stock gasket. The 4-valve head has really been appealing to me lately as it's likely just a bolt on mod that costs a couple hundred bucks and I'd guess it would add 1/2hp.
There's a lot of labour involved but if you're ambitious and have the shop manual I bet you could do it. We need to find out if they're compatable cuz it'd be a shame to develop a big bore kit only to have the valves act as a bottleneck.
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Post by chanito on Sept 29, 2005 12:02:08 GMT -5
8-)In order to replace the piston you have to tear the engine apart and install a new head gasket, with the 41mm bore you can get away with installing a factory unit, but i still would install a hi performance one to be on the safe side, however you have the choice of installing either one
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Post by lilruck on Sept 29, 2005 15:17:19 GMT -5
Will we be able to get a Hi performance gasket? I called around to see if we could get something bigger, CP pistons doesn't make pistons that small and on the the Ross website says their smallest is 58mm. I called JE but got no one picked up the phone.
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Post by chanito on Sept 29, 2005 18:20:44 GMT -5
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Post by Dandy Dan on Sept 29, 2005 18:54:02 GMT -5
Even just the cam and 4-valve head will be a big boost. Right now I don't think I'm geared quite as tall with my Kitaco variator as I was with a maxed out shaved stocker but I'm comfortably cruising at 43mph with the cam and hi-flo intake when it's warmed up and if I tuck in good conditions I can get to 45-48mph. I bet the 4 valve head would really breathe like a mofo with the H.O. Cam. Anyways, the company that Abe got to make us the cams is: www.webcamshafts.com. Why do you want to contact them? It's not like you'll be able to sell them for much cheaper than he is and you'd have to buy a big order...unless you plan on offering work on peoples engines and you want all the parts right there for you. Also, why don't we just get someone in europe to mail us some 4-valve conversion kits (head, rocker arms etc) instead of trying to get Honda to ship us some for inflated prices? It seems to me all we need to figure out is where to get some piston rings that are 43mm, sort out the head gasket and see if 4-valve head is a bolt on mod. I say we pool some money and get someone in europe (ie Hadoq) to order a euro cam from their Honda dealer and they can measure it up and let us know. I've got my stocker cam in my room to compare it to. If we get 8-9 people that will all donate 5$ (perhaps via paypal) we should have enough (Accord. to Ron Ayers the US cam is 40$ so the euro one should be similar). There's gotta be piston rings in the mid 40's. What do 80cc scoots use? What about snowmobiles, lawnmowers? The 1978 Honda CBR 250 was an inline 4 with 62cc per cyclinder and I think it was roughly 43 bore/ 45 stroke. Anyways, donate some cash people. For now just say you will and when we get enough names we can paypal Chanito or I and then send the cash to someone in europe.
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Post by chanito on Sept 29, 2005 20:38:18 GMT -5
See this is all your fault DD, i was a happy guy super satisfied with the performance of my Katrina, and then you keep posting about a bigger bore and some people about a stroker motor, and then i began wondering what this guy is doing or whatever happen to this other guy and starting making some phone calls (big mistake, my experience told me not to do it, but i did it anyway) and these people are even bigger "we can try this" than me (of course this guys experiment with somebody else money, not my case) so we started with the you can call so and so at xyz, and so and so, etc. And before i knew what happened i was thinking about a big bore kit, some people even suggested decking the poor little engine and go 47mm (it can be done but is EXPENSIVE) some body suggested the cam idea, as they said it will be around 80 dollars (cheaper than BSS by a lot, and from a big name manufacturer), also some people i know work on making custom wheels for harleys, so i called them about a nice little aluminum wheel for the ruckii, they got me in touch with a motorcycle brake manufacturer so i ask them about a fr disk set up for us, the scary part is that even though some of them were thinking i lost my mind a lot took me seriously, so i had been rolling down hill with day dreams about a super little ruckus, until i got the calculator and starting adding up, so now i am back on the ground and the obvious first step is the big bore, since the engine would be apart putting a cam would be a piece of cake. Getting the heads from Honda is a good alternative as if we buy the 25 ones for the engines we can get a dealer price so it should be cheaper than buying them in Europe and getting send over, of course there is a lot of paperwork and tape to cut for that to happen, but is a possibility worth looking into it. WE can even get to forge our own heads if we want to but prices are prohibitive, so i going to stop here or i might turn this into an unfinished dream, i love the feedback as it gives me an honest point of view, as most people i talk about do this for a living and tend to think that some of this work is peanuts and when i am with them talking about it, it looks that way, then i come home think about it and realize it is not a do it yourself project So please keep the feedback coming, i really need it
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Post by lilruck on Sept 29, 2005 21:00:17 GMT -5
I emailed service honda and I am waiting on a replay about getting Zoomer 4 valve heads. I asked about the 2006 European Zoomer head because its the only one I new had the 4V head for sure, I mentioned maybe 05 Japanese Zoomers might but I wasn't sure. I also mentioned the rocker arms and valves. What should I ask for? Hope they can get them at prices like Ron Ayers.Can we just send Web our cam and let them Mod it?
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Post by Dandy Dan on Sept 29, 2005 21:18:33 GMT -5
You can't mod a cam. You need a new one because the lobes need to be enlarged and you need things seriously precise. If you even drop your cam it's probably garbage. The lobes are spinning and 1/2 your engine RPM so picture a cam lobe with a dent it running into your valves 3500 times per minute.
The Japanese don't have 4-valve head. They have the same scoots as us except in different colours and ours are a bit safer as our turnsignals are higher, horns are louder and we might have more reflectors. The 2005 or 2006 Euro Zoomers are the ones we want but first we need to know if they are compatable hence my suggestion that we pool of bit of $$$ for a trial euro camshaft.
To do the 4-valve conversion you'd need quite a few parts. Here's a list of what I can think of: - Head - Big bore piston with 4-valve cutouts OR euro piston - Rocker arms - Valves - Valve springs - Valve seals - little bits that hold the spring the on the valve - Rods the rocker arms pivot on (actually maybe not..our may be compatable)
I'm sure I'm missing a few small parts but if it looks like this is going to go through then we can compile a more complete list using the shop manuals. Remember guys, we can covert our scoots to 4-valve now and do the big bore kit later. The only thing is you'll need to replace the piston regardless because we need a piston with 4-valve cut outs so you'd save quite a bit of labour if you did it all at once. The downside is that you don't know how big of a difference each mod made. A properly running 4-valve, H.O. cam and bored scoot should be a pretty wicked machine once you get it dialed in. I'm cruisin over 70km/hr (43mph) right now with just the Cam and a few minor mods. Abe can hit 50mph on flat with his that has the cam, bigger carb, exhaust, cdi, variator and hi-flo intake so with the addition of 4-valves and the bore kit 50mph should be easily do able.
Even if the piston doesn't work out I still think the 4-valve conversion is a worthwhile mod.
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Post by lilruck on Sept 29, 2005 21:31:21 GMT -5
Web has billet and also hard welds cams. They just put more metal on the stock cam then cut it down to the spec you want. Thats why I wanted to know if they are now doing this for the Ruckus too. I didn't know that the BSS cam was a web that makes it appeal more to me. I was scared it was some junk. I got Hot cams once for my ATV and I wouln't buy that again., but these cams probably use the stock core so I might want one. But not trying to start nothing but I weigh 217 lbs and can build up to 41 mph on flat road. It cruise strong up to about 35-37 then creeps up there. If I let my friend ride mine, I am guessing he weighs about 175 lbs he gets more out of it then I do, maybe up to the same speed as yours,so 180 for a couple miles per hour dont seem worth it. Do you like the mod and Would you do the mod again? Thanks
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