Antig
Ruckster
Posts: 107
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Post by Antig on Apr 13, 2008 2:44:40 GMT -5
For some reason, I find this forum very helpful in the resources. They are so easy to find and whenever I'm working on something I come here for reference.
I made a post on TR but I really need help so I decided to make one here too.
When I was changing my oil today, my torque wrench's calibration decided to go bad and cracked my oil drain hole.
I really don't want to spend the $250 to get a new case and the labor...who knows how much that will be.
I have no mechanical skills so I can't weld or do much on my own. I was looking at this one product called JB WELD. I was wondering maybe...I could use that and seal off the drain pan with JB WELD and a drain plug. I could change the oil with an oil vacuum.
Anyone think this is a bad idea?
Another option I'm thinking would be getting a welder to weld an aluminum plug to seal it off. But I really don't think the crankcase should be rinsed out with acetone/water or anything. And welding + oil sounds bad.
I thought about repairing the thread with HELI COIL but drilling the crankcase sounds bad also.
Anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance for everything
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Post by Dandy Dan on Apr 13, 2008 19:19:04 GMT -5
Oh wow dude! This sounds like a serious problem. My understanding of the situation is that there is actual a crack in your crankcase (as opposed to just the threads being stripped out). Assuming your crankcase is indeed cracked, here are a few options I can think of: 1) Leave it, if it's just a hairline crack it perhaps the oil won't leak through or perhaps it'll be a slow enough leak that the you can easily keep the oil topped up. Obviously this is a ghetto solution but perhaps it something you can use in the mean time. It might be a good idea to see how bad the leak is before you proceed with a more drastic solution. 2) Use crankcase sealant. When seal the two halves of the crankcase you use sort of a rubber like silicone gasket maker sealant that seals the two halves. Perhaps it would work to clean the oil away from this crack in your crankcase and then apply a bead of this sealant. You could also just put some of this around the drainbolt and screw it in too and then not use it again. 3) JB Weld might work but I suspect it's going to be less oil proof than the sealant. Because your crank is on the bottom of the crankcase (under the oil level line) then I suspect this is going to be a temporary solution at best. It would be a better option if you can actually work it into the crack so it will stay put but it sounds like that's not possible. If your crack is just a hairline then it's probably better to use the sealant as it would bond to the side of your case better. 4) You could get it aluminum welded but that might not be oil proof either and if you're going to spend all the money to have your engine rebuilt and welded then you may as well just spend the extra $250 and get a new case. 5) Buy a new engine ($200-$300) from someone online (same price as a new case from Honda). 6) What I would possibly do is crack the engine case open and try using the sealant by applying it to both sides of the crack. If you open up the crack and actually apply the sealant inside there a bit then it would likely work quite well. If you can't actually get it in the crack then it's a so-so option that might fail after a while. 7) The Heli-coil idea would be good if your threads are stripped but I don't think it's the best if your case is also cracked and if you want to keep using the drain plug. If it's just the threads that are damaged then perhaps this would be good and you could also use the vacuum pump for oil changes. 8) Are more abstract idea (if it's just a small 1/4" or so crack) is you could buy yourself a huge washer that fits around the drainbolt so that the washer covers up the crack. Then you could apply a load of sealant between the engine case and the washer which would likely seal the crack fairly well. If your crank is a big one though then this likely wouldn't be a good idea. Again this is a ghetto idea (since I'm not a mechanic) but it might just be an abstract idea that effectively seals a small crack. There's some thoughts for ya. I'm no mechanic but I'm inclined to try and find a way to use engine sealant as this is cheap and easy. This sealant is great stuff so if you can find a way to solidly apply the sealant so that it's not going to come off (i.e. if you can actually get it in the crack) then it would likely work okay as a patch solution. Here is the stuff I use: www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/specialty_gasket_maker/MotoSeal_1_Ultimate_Gasket_Maker_Grey.htm
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Post by chanito on Apr 13, 2008 19:52:56 GMT -5
Ok this is the way i would do it. Torqueing your drain bolt is a great idea, but the torque setting is so low you need the right wrench for it (1/4 inch drive) i congratulate you for it, i doubt your is tool calibrated that far off to crack the case, so most likely you pulled the threads of the case and your oil plug will not seal Get to Napa auto parts store or another big autoparts store and buy a can of brake cleaner and a loctite product called threat restorer, which is like a epoxy but also have something called a release agent (there might be some other brands with a similar product) Empty all the oil from your crankcase, you might want to tip the scooter to the right and get it off the center stand to get the most oil out of it, then put it back on the center stand, now using your can of brake cleaner, clean as best as you can both the crankcase oil drain hole and the oil plug, remove the seal washer from the plug and apply the release agent to it (it is to prevent the epoxy to adfhere to it) then mix the two components of the epoxy and apply it as best as you could to the damaged drain hole (you might want to use an stick to get it all the way around) and then screw the drain plug back in until it sits all the way in, lat it sit over night, then the next day remove the plug put back the seal washer and install it normally. refill your oil and Voila! your problem is fixed
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Post by Dandy Dan on Apr 13, 2008 22:45:17 GMT -5
It does seem hard to believe that your case is actually cracked. Assuming it's not, Chanito's method sounds like a masterful way of addressing it.
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Antig
Ruckster
Posts: 107
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Post by Antig on Apr 14, 2008 16:39:06 GMT -5
I was praying to God that if either one of you would respond to my thread and I'd be happy. Can you imagine how grateful I am that both of you are helping?
I will try to borrow a camera to take a picture but meanwhile let me try to explain the damage.
The crankcase did not crack in half. It's not that the thread is stripped, there are two cracks and both are on the bottom directly under the oil drain hole.
It cracked INTO the thread of the oil drain hole so the thread is split. The cracks itself are minuscule...about half an inch each.
I could still screw the drain bolt back in but it is loose. Oil does leak when the bolt is in there because I did not figure out until after I was refilling new oil...that it was leaking. It leaks like how it would when the drain plug is half unscrewed
Thanks to you guys, I am not taking out JB Weld and welding as a solution...thank God because I was going to go with those.
Now that the damage is clarified, I need some kind of sealant/putty/epoxy thing to fill in the cracks. I'm also thinking of putting the putty around the "cracked" thread and the bolt so when I screw it back in, it gets sealed shut in there.
What should I use to do this?
I am planning to seal the oil drain plug in with it so that it won't stress the cracks as I change my oil. I can just buy an oil vacuum.
I am not sure how competent I am with repairing it though. I have never taken a motorcycle engine apart before. Is it ok to do this with the crankcase still on the bike?
Thank you guys so so much. Seriously, I really appreciate it
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Antig
Ruckster
Posts: 107
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Post by Antig on Apr 14, 2008 19:15:11 GMT -5
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Antig
Ruckster
Posts: 107
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Post by Antig on Apr 14, 2008 19:32:53 GMT -5
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Post by chanito on Apr 14, 2008 19:44:20 GMT -5
That is from a crooked drain plug, not an over-torqued one Here, have some loving Do not panic, this just requires a different approach You will need to get some materials before hand, and some tools. Go to a marine store and get a epoxy with metal filler for repairing aluminum, then go to your auto part store and get brake cleaner, a sheet of grade 60 or 80 sandpaper and see if they can let you borrow a 12mm x 1.5 tap (to restore your threads after the epoxy dries) on the way home stop at a convenient store and buy a single edge razor blade and an ice cream on a stick, eat it as it will make life sweeter but save the stick for later, once home look around the kitchen for some wax paper (wives use them on bake sheets) search the garage and tool shed for a small piece of 2x4 and a number 3 Phillip screwdriver (fairly big), take the floor jack out of your car (you will need it over night). Get the scooter in a well ventilated and lighted place and put it in its center stand, spray some brake cleaner in the area to make sure it is clean, and then just go to town with the sand paper on that area until is a dull nice place for the epoxy to stick to (you want a course surface so go in perpendicular directions with the sand paper, so the surface have something resembling a crosshatch surface, then spray some more brake cleaner and let it evaporate, now mix some of the epoxy and use the big screw driver to separate the broken part a bit (easy we just need to cram some epoxy, not make matters worse) using the ice cream stick, force some epoxy into the cracks, use the wax paper to cover the piece of wood (2x4) and with the floor jack and the piece of wood, start raising the bottom of the engine, right underneath the rain plug hole until the jack is holding the weight of the scooter and the cracks are closed, now using the razor blade try to get as much epoxy as you can out of the area where the drain plug will sit (if you let it harden in there it will be super tough to get it out later, and you need that part as flat as you can for a good seal) let it sit over night like this, so the epoxy can cure to full strength. The next morning get the jack from under the scooter and put it back in your car (before the wife finds out) put the 2x4 and wax paper away and clean again the area with brake cleaner, and just apply some more epoxy right under the drain plug hole making sure you cover all the area with the cracks with a nice coat of epoxy. Some of the epoxy that you apply into the crack will squeeze into the threaded portion so you will need to use the tap to clean the thread for the drain plug to go in easy, go into the hole a bit then take the tap off and see if the drain plug will go all the way, keep doing it little by little until the drain plug seals properly, coat the drain plug with the silicone you bought and tighten it in place (be gentle, we do not need to do this again) fill your oil and enjoy your ruckus
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Antig
Ruckster
Posts: 107
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Post by Antig on Apr 14, 2008 20:17:21 GMT -5
Do you happen to know the approach?
If so, please enlighten me!
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Post by chanito on Apr 14, 2008 20:33:39 GMT -5
Do you happen to know the approach? If so, please enlighten me! I had to go pick my daughter from her work so i had to stop, but i finish it now ;D
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Antig
Ruckster
Posts: 107
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Post by Antig on Apr 14, 2008 23:11:46 GMT -5
That is from a crooked drain plug, not an over-torqued one Here, have some loving Do not panic, this just requires a different approach You will need to get some materials before hand, and some tools. Go to a marine store and get a epoxy with metal filler for repairing aluminum, then go to your auto part store and get brake cleaner, a sheet of grade 60 or 80 sandpaper and see if they can let you borrow a 12mm x 1.5 tap (to restore your threads after the epoxy dries) on the way home stop at a convenient store and buy a single edge razor blade and an ice cream on a stick, eat it as it will make life sweeter but save the stick for later, once home look around the kitchen for some wax paper (wives use them on bake sheets) search the garage and tool shed for a small piece of 2x4 and a number 3 Phillip screwdriver (fairly big), take the floor jack out of your car (you will need it over night). Get the scooter in a well ventilated and lighted place and put it in its center stand, spray some brake cleaner in the area to make sure it is clean, and then just go to town with the sand paper on that area until is a dull nice place for the epoxy to stick to (you want a course surface so go in perpendicular directions with the sand paper, so the surface have something resembling a crosshatch surface, then spray some more brake cleaner and let it evaporate, now mix some of the epoxy and use the big screw driver to separate the broken part a bit (easy we just need to cram some epoxy, not make matters worse) using the ice cream stick, force some epoxy into the cracks, use the wax paper to cover the piece of wood (2x4) and with the floor jack and the piece of wood, start raising the bottom of the engine, right underneath the rain plug hole until the jack is holding the weight of the scooter and the cracks are closed, now using the razor blade try to get as much epoxy as you can out of the area where the drain plug will sit (if you let it harden in there it will be super tough to get it out later, and you need that part as flat as you can for a good seal) let it sit over night like this, so the epoxy can cure to full strength. The next morning get the jack from under the scooter and put it back in your car (before the wife finds out) put the 2x4 and wax paper away and clean again the area with brake cleaner, and just apply some more epoxy right under the drain plug hole making sure you cover all the area with the cracks with a nice coat of epoxy. Some of the epoxy that you apply into the crack will squeeze into the threaded portion so you will need to use the tap to clean the thread for the drain plug to go in easy, go into the hole a bit then take the tap off and see if the drain plug will go all the way, keep doing it little by little until the drain plug seals properly, coat the drain plug with the silicone you bought and tighten it in place (be gentle, we do not need to do this again) fill your oil and enjoy your ruckus No wonder!! I KNEW it cracked when I was taking it out and not screwing it back in. Because when I was taking the plug out, it was really tight and I heard a pop. Oh man, you are a guardian angel. Thank you so much for the write up, I fell off my chair laughing multiple times as I was reading it so I had to go over it many times. two questions though, by marine shop you mean a place where they sell supplies for boats and stuff right? i'm having trouble finding one around. Would I be ok getting some metal bonding agent from a hardware store like Home Depot or an automotive store like NAPA/Pep Boys? where exactly do I sand? and why do I need to sand it if the epoxy is going to be in the cracks and not the sanded area?
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Post by chanito on Apr 15, 2008 5:50:36 GMT -5
If they have the right kind of epoxy, go ahead and get it anywhere you can. You need to sand the outside of the case, as you will put epoxy there to reinforce the case with the epoxy
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Post by Dandy Dan on Apr 15, 2008 10:24:33 GMT -5
Wow that's quite the clever method! I can't compete with that Regarding the sandpaper, you want to get the epoxy in the crack but also some on the outside of the case next to the crack, and to make this stick you need to sand the case so it's rough. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out. Keep us posted with fresh pics
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Antig
Ruckster
Posts: 107
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Post by Antig on Apr 15, 2008 14:02:53 GMT -5
Wow that's quite the clever method! I can't compete with that Regarding the sandpaper, you want to get the epoxy in the crack but also some on the outside of the case next to the crack, and to make this stick you need to sand the case so it's rough. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out. Keep us posted with fresh pics Of course! I am going to gather parts and do it in about an hour
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Antig
Ruckster
Posts: 107
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Post by Antig on Apr 15, 2008 17:01:10 GMT -5
LOL matters just got a whole lot worse. i'm going to buy a used engine with about 250 miles from someone. I have an 08 but the engine is an 07. Will there be compatibility issues with the carburetor and ECU? here is a look of what my herculean strength did
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Post by Dandy Dan on Apr 15, 2008 17:12:02 GMT -5
Ouch bro! Are you sure you want to buy a new engine before you even try to fix this?
An 08 engine will work 100% fine with an 07 Ruck.
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Antig
Ruckster
Posts: 107
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Post by Antig on Apr 15, 2008 17:18:14 GMT -5
Ouch bro! Are you sure you want to buy a new engine before you even try to fix this? An 08 engine will work 100% fine with an 07 Ruck. Some guy named Ruckus/killerscooter on the TR forum said he'd sell me the whole engine for $250. At an online store, just the crankcase itself is $250. At this point, i'm kind of worried about it. I don't want oil to be leaking without me knowing as I'm riding. Won't that be very bad if it happens? Also, in the long run people are telling me to take it to a welder to fix it and then use it to for a Big Bore? Not too sure what that is but I know Chanito makes them lol. Are there anything I should be aware of when taking the engine apart? Would the service manual tell me how to do this? If so, I think I'm going to go buy one
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Post by Dandy Dan on Apr 16, 2008 8:59:28 GMT -5
The service manual is amazing for taking the engine apart. Anyone with a few tools and a positive attitude can do it with the help of the service manual $250 is a good price for a complete 2008 engine. I guess you can always buy that and then sell your engine if you can get it patched up. To fix this, I wonder if you could apply that grey sealant to the crack and then screw in the drain bolt to hold it in place? Might be kinda ghetto but it would be easy. If you could somehow get the sealant in the crack and then get it welded or atleast tacked into place with a welder then it would likely work well. If you just get it welded then it might leak slowly.
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Antig
Ruckster
Posts: 107
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Post by Antig on Apr 16, 2008 14:58:43 GMT -5
The service manual is amazing for taking the engine apart. Anyone with a few tools and a positive attitude can do it with the help of the service manual $250 is a good price for a complete 2008 engine. I guess you can always buy that and then sell your engine if you can get it patched up. To fix this, I wonder if you could apply that grey sealant to the crack and then screw in the drain bolt to hold it in place? Might be kinda ghetto but it would be easy. If you could somehow get the sealant in the crack and then get it welded or atleast tacked into place with a welder then it would likely work well. If you just get it welded then it might leak slowly. The thing is, these epoxies are only temperature resistant up to 500 Fahrenheit so if I put it together with the epoxy, it would not withstand the temperature while they are welding. It's kind of confusing. For now I'm just trying to put the engine on (I'll take care of the spare engine later) Do you know how to install the stator and flywheel?
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Post by chanito on Apr 16, 2008 19:48:17 GMT -5
It takes a very good welder to weld that casting without significant distortion, i would still do the metal filled epoxy instead of the welding, unless your friend is very good and you can machine the drain sealing surface
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